John on Tech...
A look at technology from MY point of view
Monday 26 March 2007, 7:46 PM
Paul was obviously upset...
I was wrong about the cost of the XBOX 360. But I don't think the smaller machine that he was comparing the Apple TV to has any hard drive capability so not directly compatible and er, you don't have wireless streaming - and certainly not at 802.11n rates without paying a lot more money and I also don't believe that any of the XBOX machines have an HDMI port.
For $399 dollars you can get a machine from Microsoft from which you can RENT movies for a set price. With a media center you may be able to stream stuff which you can get elsewhere. Like all Microsoft products everything is extra - OK I know the ATV doesn't ship with cables - but in a way the cable you need is kinda dependant on the thing you are plugging it into.
The thing I kind of objected to was the reference to Apple TV purchasers as "Tools"
Compared to other living room solutions, the Apple TV falls flat unless, again, you've really made a commitment to iTunes and have decided that's the way to consume TV and movie content. (If so, you're kind of a tool, actually.)
Cached version here:
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:Izvdp125e2sJ:www.winsupersite.com/reviews/appletv.asp+http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/appletv.asp&hl=en&client=safari&strip=1
Seems to have been changed to:
Compared to other living room solutions, the Apple TV falls flat unless, again, you've really made a commitment to iTunes and have decided that's the way to consume TV and movie content. (If so, Apple TV will disappoint you anyway, because its HD display makes Apple's low quality content look horrible.)
So maybe the article you guys read was different from the one I read. I think Paul maybe got up on the wrong side of the bed when he wrote that sentence and it does seem to have been fixed since he wrote it.
But all in all perhaps he was just disappointed that the Apple TV turned out to be what Apple said it was going to be - an iPod for your television. Nothing more nothing less. Scary thing is that it is actually a very cheap OSX machine... but don't tell anyone... after all Microsoft want a great big box with logos on beside your TV. So you know you are getting a Microsoft experience.
PreviousComments on this post
The appletv is a product with nice packaging but little substance. This product would have been impressive 2 or 3 years ago but because it has the apple logo on it its getting all kinds of attention it doesn’t deserve. Apple says its changing the face of TV? How is that exactly? It doesnt offer anything that isnt already available.
Anyone with an xbox doesn't need this, anyone who's life doesn't revolve around quicktime and itunes shouldnt buy this. There are already half a dozen other products that do far more for the same price like ones from netgear.
After reading Paul Thurrotts review and taking a look at his other reviews of apple products (most of which are very favorable) I would say he would have a right to be upset. You made a few false accusations against him basically attacked his credibility saying he was not capable of an unbiased review. Perhaps that can be said about you? looking at your history as an apple worshiper any reviews you do on their products can't be taken seriously since its obvious what you will say.
But you're not the only one guilty of drinking too much from the Steve Jobs fountain of propaganda. Because this is the first real mediocre product apple has made in awhile, its release has been an eye opener on the web. It's separated the unbiased hardware reviewers and bloggers who give honest reviews and who have just become apple fanboys incapable of giving a bad review to anything with with the apple logo on it.
You don't believe that any of the XBOX machines have an HDMI port? Too bad you don't research stuff before writing or you'd know about Xbox 360 Elite with HDMI port. Paul Thurrott at least researches the facts before he writes, unfortunately both your lies about Xbox price and lack of HDMI port mark you as just another Apple zealot.
"You don't believe that any of the XBOX machines have an HDMI port? Too bad you don't research stuff before writing or you'd know about Xbox 360 Elite with HDMI port."
I do know about the 360 elite - BUT the cost of that is 479 bucks which is considerably higher than the Apple TV at $299.
And just to clear a few things up - I have both the Apple TV and an XBOX 360 - and despite what Paul said the 360 at 299 needs both a hard drive and a wireless connector to reach the specs of the Apple TV. And remember that for the extra 100 Bucks the Drive you get is only 20 gigs.
And yes I know MS have just announce a 120 gig drive - but that will set you back around 180 bucks and I just bought a 500 gig drive for around that price.
Jeez - and you guys complain about people drinking at the Apple fountain!
"the 360 at 299 needs both a hard drive and a wireless connector to reach the specs of the Apple TV"
By the same logic anyone can say that Apple TV needs a fast 3D graphics chip and multicore CPU to reach the specs of Xbox 360. This is likely to cost a consumer even more than adding a wireless chip and a hard drive to the core ($299) Xbox 360. Somehow you "forgot" about this.
"MS have just announced a 120 gig drive - but that will set you back around 180 bucks and I just bought a 500 gig drive for around that price"
Apple charges $175 for one gigabyte of DDR2-667 RAM if you want to get a MacBook with 2GB of RAM. You can also get the same 1GB of DDR2-667 RAM on newegg.com for $60. Does it bother you? Are you focused only on Microsoft ripping off their customers and "forget" to notice when Apple does exactly the same?
"the cost of that is 479 bucks which is considerably higher than the Apple TV at $299"
This is to be expected, because Xbox 360 Elite allows you to do things that Apple TV can do (802.11n is the only thing Xbox Elite loses on) plus much more. The extra $180 is the price to pay for that "much more".
er. Apple TV is a box for streaming video and audio to a television set. It's not a games machine. Just because you spend 399 on an XBOX and get the same features that's just a side issue.
"Apple charges $175 for one gigabyte of DDR2-667 RAM if you want to get a MacBook with 2GB of RAM. You can also get the same 1GB of DDR2-667 RAM on newegg.com for $60."
Correct - but er, I can buy the memory from Newegg and install it in my Mac. To have the integrated hard drive for the 360 you have to buy it from Microsoft - see the difference?
"The extra $180 is the price to pay for that "much more"."
As has been stated before - it isn't about the much more. The Apple job just acts as a media extender - try fighting the 360 with the kids who are playing Gears of War so you can show granny your photos from your Orlando trip.
I also hasten to add that the extra 180 bucks is only 120 bucks less than another apple TV. The whole conversation was based on the fact that Paul said that the Apple TV is a lot less value than am Xbox 360 at the same price. The fact is that at that price the box Paul was talking about couldn't do any of what Paul was claiming it would do without paying for the drive or the wireless which is a lot more money.
"To have the integrated hard drive for the 360 you have to buy it from Microsoft"
I doubt that. Read this: http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox360-tools/HDDHackr.php - people were routinely installing their own (non-Microsoft) hard disks in Xbox 360 for several months now. Like I told you - research before you write.
"The whole conversation was based on the fact that Paul said that the Apple TV is a lot less value than an Xbox 360 at the same price."
That was a birds view perspective, he basically said something like $299 Xbox can stream multimedia and play games, and $299 Apple TV can only stream multimedia, hence on the large scale it loses on value. Now we can discuss how much value is in GPU/multicore CPU versus wireless and hard disk, but in general he was looking at the big picture, and you were picking at details - that's the difference.
Hey, Xbox hacker - I'm talking about things real people do. You carefully are ignoring the points I'm making about what these things are designed to do. You say that people are "routinely installing" external hard disks. Get real - just because you CAN do something doesn't mean that you are supposed to do something.
You keep saying that I should do my research and then start quoting pretty esoteric hacks. Stop it. You are being silly and are proving that you just seem to be some kinda xbox fan boy.
I am not slagging off the xbox I am basically saying that Apple have a product that makes doing what it's designed to do very easy. You can come back at me and say... blah, blah, blah Xbox. But you are proving at every step that you are NOT the target market for this product.
"people were routinely installing their own (non-Microsoft) hard disks in Xbox 360 for several months now." RTFA it is dated February 14th which would translate as er, a month and a half at the most. Could you also edit your comment so that you DONT link directly to a HACK site please?
Let's put it in simple terms. The Apple TV is an iPod for your TV. If you want an iPod for your TV then it will fulfil your requirements perfectly. If you don't want an iPod for your television then it won't.
This is why the Wii is doing so well. It does gaming in a way that appeals to non gamers. Casual gamers. Er, people who wanna have fun - which as a point of reference was why people played games in the first place.
It's also why I didn't rise to Paul's or George Ou's hysteria yesterday on the "WTF??!!?? Apple pwd m3 ATV!!!!!!!" debate. Both pounced on panic in the Apple TV hacking community about their boxes being completely reset by Apple over the internet - when it looks like there is a CRON job built into the system which either reset permissions or copies a drive image back which the hackers didn't discover in the first few days.
Go play with your XBOX. Have fun. Go Hack it and "routinely" install external disk drives if you so desire - BTW if you had read the article it seems that a) It only works with one range of hard drives and er b) that particular hack will only produce 20 gig drives - yeah and I'm sure that when the 120 gig drive is actually out then there will be a hack for a 120 Gig drive but hardly a "routinely" installed mod is it?
So back to the original debate. The XBOX 360 at 299 will NOT do what an Apple TV does at 299. Conversely an Apple TV at 299 does NOT do what an XBOX 360 does at 299. To get the XBOX to do anything approaching what the Apple TV does at 299 requires at the very minimum a 20 gig drive which will cost you a hundred bucks. To get the wireless streaming will require around 80 bucks but it will be at G speeds and not N speeds which is not the same. To get he HDMI port you will have to spend 479 bucks plus the Wireless G card - but you will get a 120 gig drive for the money. This will allow you to stream content from your media center pc and rent movies from Microsoft. So let's see - ignoring the cost of the PC - because with both you have to have a PC (I mean that generically - before Microsoft turned up PC meant personal computer). I make that around 560 bucks from Microsoft to achieve the same thing that Apple have done for 299. Yes I know that the Apple TV won't play games however much you spend on it - although I think I've seen obscure reports on the internet of people playing WOW on it. But this is NOT about a gaming device. It is about an iPod for your TV.
"it is dated February 14th which would translate as er, a month and a half at the most"
Nope, a bit earlier - http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEyAZlukkkkGLVUagB.php - January 25th, so its several months already, like I said. I fixed it to a couple of months, instead of several months, but this changes nothing.
"when the 120 gig drive is actually out then there will be a hack for a 120 Gig drive but hardly a "routinely" installed mod is it?"
I doubt it. How many people would choose $80 hard drive instead of $180 hard drive? A lot. At least among computer literate folk this hack is routine since it does not require any hardcore magic/soldering/laser beaming hi-tech kind of stuff, it's almost plug'n'play :-)
"The XBOX 360 at 299 will NOT do what an Apple TV does at 299. Conversely an Apple TV at 299 does NOT do what an XBOX 360 does at 299."
That's the core flaw in your logic. Both ATV and Xbox do media streaming, they only differ in little details (wireless and hard drive), but the CORE functionality - media streaming from a PC - is present in BOTH systems. At the same time Xbox has another big chunk of functionality - games. ATV can't play games, hence on a MAJOR scale it loses to Xbox, on the other hand it wins in some minor areas, like 802.11n
I guess you don't understand that you were looking at minor details while Paul was looking at the big picture. It turned out that ATV can't do both streaming and gaming but it can do just streaming better than Xbox for the same money. If you understood that from the very beginning (I mean the fact that Paul was looking at the big picture, not at the details) you wouldn't write silly things like Paul was upset blah blah - he didn't seem to be upset, he was just looking at two big things Xbox can do and one big thing that ATV can do, and honestly describing the situation. You could write something like: okay Paul, ATV can't do those two big things that Xbox can do, BUT it can do its one thing somewhat better than Xbox because it has 802.11n and hard drive. However, instead of these reasonable arguments, you chose to write some stupid things about Xbox Core priced at $399, and then about "no Xbox models having HDMI" and stuff like that. I don't mind people defending Apple, I just find it funny when they look silly doing this.
P.S. first you write "don't use those dirty HACKERS as a reference", and then you write "I heard of some hackers running WOW on ATV". Smells like double standard :-)
