Jamie's Random Musings
Various thoughts and adventures, including but not limited to Linux, Windows XP and Widows Vista, and assorted bits of hardware new and old.
Sunday 18 October 2009, 8:35 AM
Getting A Refund for Unwanted Microsoft Windows
I strongly encourage people to do this. Sometimes it will work, and you will get some money back, but often it won't, and you will either be ignored, or you will be told, as I have been, that if you don't accept the license agreement, your only option is to return the entire computer for a refund. But either way, it makes some noise and if enough people do it, perhaps some OEMs will start to pay more attention.
Why bother? Here's a simple analogy. Suppose you were buying a new television, and for the particular model you wanted, you were required to also buy a specific cable or satellite subscription. I don't think it would take long before consumers were up in arms about that.
jw 18/10/2009
PreviousComments on this post
Always good to hear about someone sticking up for themselves this way.
I always build from scratch these days so it's not something I come across!
Its a good article with a good end result. :)
Hopefully as time goes on more and more people will start to look at the various license's agreements tied to complete system purchases, and hopefully at some point new legislation will be brought in to stop monopolistic practices.
Regarding your analogy, it wasn't a good one - here in the UK we are required to have/buy a BBC TV licence (subscription), when buying a TV! They pass the name/address to the licence authorities, at purchase. (Note:A TV Licence is not required to watch 'non live' broadcasts in the UK such as bbc.co.uk/iplayer, known as 'catch up tv', but is if you watch a live feed via bbc.co.uk)
The licence authorities send out vast numbers of reminders claiming that people are faced been fined upto £1000. MS might lobby to go the same route if Windows became optional, with MS assuming your running a pirated copy and sending demanding letters for payment otherwise, whenever you bought a new PC without Windows installed.
I think companies should have a Software Licence inpection, incorporated into a tax inspection, so if you are required to have a tax inspection, your software licences are examined and you are required to pay VAT on any unlicenced software or underlicencing. It would also be fairer to Ubuntu - because it would mean companies would have to gauge the real value of using MS Office over Openoffice. The threat of software/tax inspection might make companies jump ship to Linux- Ubuntu/Openoffice.
As a side note: The Vista with lipstick (as you put it) Windows 7 Family pack (3 licence) is now being released on 22nd Oct and Amazon are selling this at £129 for pre-order, which seems to be setting the 'benchmark' price. Which for anyone running Vista - the thought of being asked to pay for an upgrade, is probably £129 too much. Though for anyone running XP for 8 years on the same licence - it doesn't seem to bad. Then again, Ubuntu is free and Mac OS Snow leopard is a £25 upgrade.
@adamjarvis - Thanks for reading and commenting. You are correct, I didn't understand the TV license/tax situation in the U.K. well enough to make a good analogy. Here in Switzerland we also have to pay a TV tax, but just paying that doesn't actually get you much of anything, you still have to have some sort of cable/satellite/internet package, unless you are satisfied with receiving only the few stations you can get via DVB-T here.
I like your idea of software inspection - in particular I think that anything which makes consumers and companies consider the real cost of software is very beneficial. I would also like the fact that it could force individuals and companies to pay for licenses where they should, and would make those who might have "inadvertently" come to have an illegal copy of something aware of that. Despite the fact that I do not like Microsoft, their software or their licensing policies and fees, I am absolutely not someone who advocates stealing or otherwise misappropriating copies. I believe that Microsoft (or anyone else) has the right to set their prices and terms, and those should be respected; I have the right to object, and not purchase or otherwise use their products. Which brings us right back to the original topic of this thread... someone, somewhere along the line, is taking that choice away from me, and forcing me to pay for a copy of Windows which I do not want or need, and will not use.
I think that I have made my opinion very clear about the fact that Microsoft has the gall to charge people who purchased the original Vista for the Lipstick version now, so I will not go any further into that rant.
Thanks again for reading and commenting.
jw
@jamie, I think you make a valid point regarding the licence, but in life we constantly have to pay for things where it suits the majority, take credit card transaction fees/ATM fees. To give Microsoft some credit, they are not the only ones doing this - its a business model.
The point I was trying to make is that it is tv licencing assumes that everyone watches TV in the UK, therefore everyone 'must' have a licence. If you don't have a licence, you are deemed to be a 'tv licence evader', irrespective of the fact - you might not actually watch TV, in the same way like you - might not actually use your licence of Windows on your laptop.
The constant threat of sending someone round to inspect their home for TV receiving equipment, means most comply. The BBC keep the status quo. The problem is there is a 'significant' minority, as I like to call them that no longer watch TV by traditional means, the licence fee/TV advertising is slowly being eroded, whether TV licencing like to admit it or not.
Take the average teenager, if you said (as a form of punishment) you can't watch TV for a week - I really don't think they would be too bothered - they have laptops, internet; downloading music/films, Xbox360-games, online chat, mobile phones, magazines, and even traditional books, as well as standing out on the street corner with their mates + all other activities they might want to do.
TV just isn't that important anymore, yet we are all forced to pay the TV tax, are the next generation going to be so willing to pay this?
Credit card payments - larger retailers - receipts often state a 2.5% Card handling fee payable to the card services division, yet paying in cash there is no difference in the total bill.
Its a shame to say but I really don't think even if Windows was optional, the PC you bought would be any cheaper, it was probably cost more because it would have to be specially configured 'blank', against the majority with Windows, mass produced/mass configured, and if indeed it was cheaper to produce , the difference would be absorbed - its an uphill struggle.
The biggest scam to me is not that the licence is compulsory, is that the OEM licence dies with the machine, and if you look at the apparent number of recalls of HP Nvidia based machines dying just outside their warranty, thats a lot of dead licences, that people have paid for, but are not in use - filling the pockets of MS.
How about a bank of free licences based on unused OEM licences?, that allow people/companies to access 'on the fly' when the need to - after all MS are pooling the Intellectual Properties with other companies, how about unused licences for use by charities, for example. That a charity somewhere had use of your unused,unactivated licence.
It would be nice if MS published the actual number of valid licences of XP/Vista in use (ie receiving updates) compared to the OEM licences which have been sold and are in the wild, when quoting piracy figures. In reality I don't think MS want 100% licence conformity, because low level piracy, keeps MS as the main stream default system everyone uses, it allows them to justify their prices, as their is a grey area related to licences in use / against ones paid for. If you had 100% conformity, through a tax inspection system (I'm talking business use) then maybe even the Inland revenue realise that this might actually reduce their tax take as people jump ship to open source - the status quo wins again.
We all have to pay the MS tax, and thats why I say buy your Windows 7 licences the next few weeks because eventually you will need them, and they will never be this cheap again (as I call it the harry potter effect - shifting boxes of Windows 7 with your weekly shop), because MS want rid of XP, and they want rid of Vista. They want to support one system and thats Windows 7 - the savings are enormous in this regard for MS, and regards to Linux competition I believe they'd probably give it away if they had to, and find some other revenue stream via search/product placement.
@adamjarvis - Good comments, very interesting and thought provoking, thanks. Two points I want to add just a bit on.
As I said, Switzerland has basically the same kind of TV tax. It used to be fairly easy to avoid paying it, you simply had to state that you did not have a television, and be prepared for an inspector to drop by and verify that. Over the past few years, though, there has been a lot of public controversy as the government has extended that to include many of the alternative TV-viewing devices, such as you mentioned - computers, cell phones and such. Now we too are reduced to trying to claim (and prove?) that we don't watch television on such devices.
I absolutely agree that MS wants to get rid of both XP and Vista, but for two a different reason. I personally think that this is not so much because they want to "support" only one system, but because they want to reach into the pockets of as many existing Windows users as possible. Looked at in this way, Vista was a significant win for Microsoft, because now they get to tap a lot of those users twice in a much shorter time than they otherwise would have.
jw
Thanks for the post! I have been successful in a couple refunds from Dell but only on NEW systems. They have refused to refund on refurbished systems. Some excuse about the license being part of the original machine. But, my advice is the same as the original article states, give it a try!! It's shameful that Dell still hasn't started to offer PCs with NO OS, as the SAME PRICE as PCs with Windoze. Hopefully as more and more request the refund, that they will get a clue. It's too bad they are are victim of Microsoft's Windows tax.
@apexwm - Now there's an excellent idea that hadn't crossed my mind. Even if I couldn't get my money back, I would object much less to paying the "normal" price for a computer with no operating system installed, in the knowledge that Microsoft would not be getting any part of my money for a product that I did not want or need, would not use and do not want to support in any way. I would prefer paying less, obviously, but if I had to choose, this would be the "lesser of two evils".
Thanks for reading and commenting.
jw
Dell offers systems with FreeDOS, which I don't think anybody would actually use. The concept is that you're buying a PC but not paying for any OS. Same thing with the systems they offer with Ubuntu. But when you compare these systems to the systems with Windoze Vista/XP, you can get the Windoze model for less in most cases for the same exact hardware. And for instance in the Dell Outlet (refurbished systems), ONLY models with Windows are sold. My only guess is that Dell has to unload the licenses of Windows that they already have paid Microsoft for, so they bundle them with systems to get them out the door. Unfortunately, this doesn't help the consumer any, it hurts the consumer.
My suggestion to anybody buying a PC: Buy the PC, and when you receive it immediately contact the vendor's support (Dell support by either email, chat, or phone) and tell them that you switched on the PC and have rejected the Windows license agreement that comes up on the screen. Explain that it says right on the screen that the user can contact the vendor for a refund. Be persistent, and hopefully they will honor your request. I've found that by submitting a support case by email to Dell, you have the highest chance of getting your request because it's more difficult for Dell to argue it over email.
Systems from Novatech in the UK can be bought without an operating system quite easily and was one of the reasons I recently bought from them.
The people I work for have also used Novatech and found them pretty good.
Another one for (mostly) industrial stuff aimed at the Linux market is LinITX.
