Jamie's Random Musings
Various thoughts and adventures, including but not limited to Linux, Windows XP and Widows Vista, and assorted bits of hardware new and old.
Sunday 25 October 2009, 2:07 PM
No Email Program in Windows 7???????
If this is true, then I would guess it is a cheap trick from Microsoft to try to force their users to switch to Windows Live Mail or whatever. I certainly wouldn't put that past them - but still, it seems like an extraordinarily blunt instrument, even for them.
All of the dedicated (blind) Microsoft loyalists out there who have been going on and on and on and on about how wonderful Windows 7 is, and how easy the upgrade from Vista is (what about Windows Mail users), and how easy the migration from XP is (what about Outlook Express users)... I'm waiting to hear the rationalization behind this one.
Here's a new slogan for Windows 7:
Migrating is easy when you throw away an application
Here's one last thought. Assuming some Microsoft customers choose to go ahead and switch to Windows Live Mail (essentially at gunpoint, but we can be charitable and say "choose"...). Do the wonderful, excellent, beautiful Microsft Windows 7 Upgrade/Migration tools make it easy for them to transfer their existing data - mail folders (all of them, intact), addresses and such?
jw 25/10/2009
PreviousComments on this post
I use Thunderbird on all my platforms so I didn't think much about this, although I did know there was no 'Windows Mail' in Windows 7. Many of my friends do use Outlook Express or Windows Mail (same thing really). So what do they do when it comes time to move on?
Microsoft philosophy IS to move everyone over to Windows Live Mail, but I have no idea whether mail can actually be migrated to a storage structure on the computer. Generally speaking, I think that my friends using Outlook Express/Windows mail will not be best pleased with the omission of the mail client, to put it mildly; what are they supposed to do with their existing mail? Indeed, how do they continue receiving their ISP based email on their computer.
I personally have previously lost all my email on my Hotmail account (nothing critical) and I have a friend using only Yahoo who lost all her mail going back years. At the time there were other reports of lost emails. Currently, there is the T-Mobile/Sidekick fiasco with customers' lost data and in which Microsoft are involved.
Perhaps bucking the trend, I like all my data stored locally, and I think that probably goes for a lot of other people too.
Incidentally, Microsoft's instructions to 'upgrade' from XP included with Win 7 downplay the task considerably, as this is not a task to undertaken lightly or even by the less experienced.
Notwithstanding this, Windows 7 is pleasant to use. I have the RC Ultimate installed on my netbook in a multi-boot arrangement with the original XP and Ubuntu Netbook Remix 9.04 which I will upgade to 9.10 next week.
This complaint doesn't really make any sense.
I'm guessing you were expecting Outlook Express, which was dropped in Windows Vista three years ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlook_Express)?
Windows Mail is a free download. It's the curent "free desktop e-mail client" for Windows, but since many people like to use webmail (such as GMail) or other e-mail clients (Outlook, Thunderbird, etc.), why install it on everyone's computer?
You can import your mail from Outlook Express to Windows Mail. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-vista/Import-messages-into-Windows-Mail-from-Outlook-Express
@Jon - Thanks for reading and commenting. But I'm afraid I don't agree with your comment at all. First, although Outlook Express was indeed "replaced" by Windows Mail in Vista, (I would not call that dropped, but I suppose you can look at it that way), the very large portion of Windows users who are still using XP would still have Outlook Express. So wouldn't just make the blanket statement that I was "expecting" Outlook Express, I would say that I was "expecting" one or the other, or perhaps yet another new iteration, since I have long since gotten used to Microsoft monkeying around with the included mail client with every new release of Windows. So I was shocked that there is NONE this time.
Second, I wasn't aware that Windows Mail was supposed to be a free download for Windows in general, or Windows 7 in particular, but I have to say after doing some very brief searching, I'm still not convinced that it is, since everything I found said "download Windows Mail for Vista". Even if it is (and honestly I'm willing to take your word for it, or at least for the fact that the Vista download will work on Win7), is this something that we should expect the average, ordinary Windows user to know about, and to be able to accomplish? Isn't this one of the things that Linux is constantly getting ripped for, that users have to download and install things that they need?
Third, in answer to "why install it on everyone's computer", I would respond "why not, when it is such a basic part of the use of the computer for so many people, and it has ALWAYS been included in every previous release of Windows". When the Windows 7 distribution is running to however many hundred megabytes (or gigabytes), exactly what are they "saving" by omitting something like this, compared to the inconvenience and aggravation they are causing for so many users?
Fourth, while I certainly agree that Thunderbird can be used, and I certainly would do exactly that if I were ever cursed with having to use Windows 7, I don't think that's the point for most Windows users. As for Outlook, the last I knew it was not free, users who use it generally got it as part of Microsoft Office, which is a long way from "free", and if you are foolish enough to try to buy only Outlook separately, it is currently listed at Microsoft for $109.95...
My point is, generally speaking some sort of simple email client such as Outlook Express or Windows Mail is extremely small potatoes, so why would Microsoft drop it after having included it in one form or another in every Windows distribution at least since Win98, and I can't specifically remember before that. I think it is exceptionally stupid and inconsiderate of their existing customers.
Thanks again for reading and commenting.
jw
Hi Moley. I agree with you, I think there are going to be a lot of Windows users who will not be "best pleased" with this omission. I personally find it to be very rude and inconsiderate, but typical of Microsoft. I mentioned this over dinner with a friend, and he pointed out that it seems like Microsoft has been trying to push Outlook at the expense of whatever the "free" mail client was for quite some time now. So I suppose that is part of their reason, or at least justification - "if you really need a mail client, user Outlook".
By the way, I would be very interested in hearing what you think after you upgrade UNR to 9.10. I was exceptionally impressed when I looked at it a couple of weeks ago, I think it is a huge improvement over 9.04, at least in appearance and usability.
jw
The windows mail client is part of the windows live live essentials offering. It appears as an optional update through windows update. Just untick what you don't want and leave mail ticked.
I'm not sure how this can be considered a bad thing? It's another case of Microsoft is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Anti-trust regulators and competitiors have whined for years that Windows massive market share put them in an unfair position to leverage their own products that sit within but are seperate to the OS.
The Windows Live Mail product was the succesor to Windows Mail (nee Outlook Express) anyway, it's version 14, built by the same team that built Windows Mail, and is not a new application. Updates to the Windows Mail client stopped during Windows Vista with the focus put on Windows Live Mail allowing for the use of webmail, RSS reader, seperate inboxes for each account and other changes to make it more full featured.
So there is no why Windows Live Mail not Windows Mail issue, as it is the same product, the fact that it's now downloaded is neglible really, and is only to the the consumers benefit not detriment.
Users can choose if they want to download the Live Suite (Messenger, Mail, Photo Gallery etc either one or all of them) or if they want someone elses product altogether, and not just use Microsofts client by default just because it happens to be there in the OS.
Microsoft has been very clear since at least last October and I think before (Bill Gates mentioned it at CES 2008): Outlook Express and Windows Mail have been replaced in win7 by Windows Live Mail, which is a free download - with a link in the Windows 7 Start menu. The same is true of Windows Messenger and Movie Maker, BTW. Microsoft puts this down to the EU and the antri-trust settlement in the US: there are things the courts have decided they can't put into the OS. We've had no truble migrating mail on our test systems - the file migration tool saves all the mail for you - and the Live apps do get more frequent updates. Live Photo Gallery is a cracking image organiser and editor. Some OEMs like Dell also bundle the Live apps on new PCs. Six of one, half a dozen of the other I'd say.
-Mary
While I am pleased to hear that there is something available, apparently reasonably easily, I remain unconvinced as to Microsoft's motive in doing this. I have one last question about this - if the mail client is now part of the "Windows Live" morass, does that mean that in order to download/install/use it, the user will be forced to created the dreaded "Windows Live ID"?
jw
No a LiveID is not required for the download or the installation. It starts and operates in the same way that Windows Mail and Outlook Express do once installed. I suppose it could look as if there was some alterior motive here, but I think in this case they are simply trying to consolidate the online services mail, messenger, live writer etc and avoid future anti-trust headaches.
This comment has been deleted at the users request
I installed Windows Live Mail last night as an experiment and to inform myself regarding the matters raised in this blog and comments. Although I did not pay sufficient attention to the absolute necessity, I clearly remember a screen to either sign in or create an account. I did sign in, having had a Hotmail account for many years which I use occasionally to avoid exposure of my principle email account (in certain circumstances).
Once set up, Windows Live Mail does seem, more or less, to act as a normal mail client. However, I can imagine many of the (otherwise intelligent) users I come across being completely confused and, in fact, totally unable to get to grips with an 'upgrade' from XP to Win 7 unless someone will do it for them.
I have just discovered, and installed, the Open Source Sylpheed email client on my Windows 7 Netbook. It has a clean and intuitive user interface similar enough to Outlook Express/Windows Mail to be familiar to users, unlike Windows Live which also forces the installation of potentially unwanted software.
For some time I have happy to be using Thunderbird but I will be seriously thinking of changing to Sylpheed in the near future.
First impressions are excellent and I expect that I can use it in Linux as well, although I have not yet checked.
@jw
Why do you dread Live ID? It's a long way from Passport now... and no more broken than OpenID
-M
@Moley - that sounds extremely interesting, I'll have a look for it the first chance I get, and I'll be watching for more comments from you about it here.
@Bisson/Branscombe - I do not trust anything that Microsoft does, under any circumstances and for any purpose, and I always assume they have the worst possible motives for whatever they do. That sounds ridiculously paranoid, but unfortunately Microsoft has proven it to be justified many times over the years.
jw
@Moley
@J.A.
You might also like to look at Claws-Mail.
This was originally an offshoot of Sylpheed (as Sylpheed-Claws), but has now gone it's own way, although it still uses the same standard mailbox file structure.
It is multiply cross-platform although as yet, I don't think the Windows version has in-line spell checking.
I've been using it for several years, and find it very light-weight.
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